Inspiring Middle School Readers to Read with Dr. Dowan McNair-Lee
In this episode, RIF’s VP of Literacy Programs & Research and podcast host Erin Bailey talks with Dr. Dowan McNair-Lee about teaching literacy to middle school students, emphasizing the importance of student choice, diverse texts, and the value of graphic novels in engaging young readers. They also explore challenges such as balancing classics with contemporary works, the impact of COVID-19 on literacy, and how reading fosters personal growth, connection, and hope for all students.
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Erin Bailey: Welcome.00:00:00.884 --> 00:00:06.764
This morning I'm talking to Dr. Dewan McNair Lee, who is a dear friend of mine.00:00:07.064 --> 00:00:18.044
We go back to our doctoral studies at the George Washington University, where we found out that we had a shared passion of literacy and we actually were neighbors.00:00:18.044 --> 00:00:22.632
We taught across the street from each other, and since then, we've become great friends.00:00:22.992 --> 00:00:23.442
Dewan has.00:00:23.937 --> 00:00:25.527
Been a great support to rif.00:00:25.527 --> 00:00:35.667
She's on our early childhood Education advisory Board and she's done many webinars for us, so I'm excited to sit down with her today to have this chat.00:00:35.871 --> 00:00:37.461
I'll pass it over to you, Dewan.00:00:37.461 --> 00:00:38.091
Welcome.00:00:38.091 --> 00:00:43.593
Please share your story, in your background and teaching, and specifically middle schoolers.00:00:44.533 --> 00:00:45.163
Dowan: Sure thing.00:00:45.163 --> 00:00:48.433
Hey Erin, it is so good to be with you.00:00:48.493 --> 00:00:53.414
specifically, like you said, we've gone, we go back a long, long way.00:00:53.463 --> 00:00:56.103
we're hitting on our 10 year anniversary next year.00:00:56.103 --> 00:00:56.943
Can you believe it?00:00:57.003 --> 00:00:57.308
Oh my god.00:00:57.836 --> 00:00:59.306
and the work with riff.00:00:59.349 --> 00:01:10.116
thank you for inviting me to riff into this space that censors reading and literacy, is just always such an exciting time and an invigorating time for me to be in this space.00:01:10.116 --> 00:01:10.266
So.00:01:11.206 --> 00:01:12.436
My story.00:01:12.754 --> 00:01:20.704
I started off as a, elementary education major who taught third grade at first, my first two years with third grade.00:01:21.214 --> 00:01:27.786
And my principal at the time taught, was the principal of both our elementary campus and our middle school campus.00:01:27.786 --> 00:01:34.956
And somewhere mid my second year teaching third grade, she was like, you need to move.00:01:35.976 --> 00:01:39.726
And I was like, move where she was like, I wanna move you to middle school.00:01:39.786 --> 00:01:42.036
I wanna move you to our middle school campus.00:01:42.336 --> 00:01:45.186
So the next year she moved me to our sixth grade campus.00:01:45.227 --> 00:01:50.013
and I taught sixth grade ELA and I immediately fell in love.00:01:50.103 --> 00:01:52.923
I just knew that it was the place for me.00:01:53.343 --> 00:01:56.468
Middle schoolers had just the right amount of.00:01:57.138 --> 00:02:04.428
Sweet yet sarcasm that I could match and I could feel comfortable in conversation with them.00:02:04.767 --> 00:02:07.257
the text that we read, we could read rich texts.00:02:07.257 --> 00:02:13.677
We have great conversations and I just adored my time with sixth graders throughout the years.00:02:13.743 --> 00:02:15.183
I taught sixth grade.00:02:15.183 --> 00:02:21.963
I taught seventh grade, but then the, my last middle school placement in Prince George's County was with eighth grade.00:02:23.373 --> 00:02:24.813
And eighth graders have my heart.00:02:25.170 --> 00:02:30.306
teaching eighth grade reading English Language Arts, was revelatory for me.00:02:30.546 --> 00:02:41.286
It was an opportunity for me to engage with rich young adult literature while also teaching students the skills to access text, both fiction, nonfiction.00:02:42.116 --> 00:03:03.422
One of my favorite units to teach was always the, nonfiction argument unit where they had to argue about paper straws and plastic in the ocean, and
teaching them how to write about their opinions and their arguments and write counter arguments just was the highlight really of my, my teaching experience.00:03:03.722 --> 00:03:07.772
The other thing that was fun and helpful was that when I was teaching eighth grade.00:03:08.697 --> 00:03:11.037
I wrote, my dissertation is handled with my students.00:03:11.037 --> 00:03:16.137
So when they were writing, I would write and they would hold me accountable for my writing.00:03:16.137 --> 00:03:26.427
So if I said I was gonna finish a page or do this or work out some theoretical question I had, my students would ask me at the end of class, after they finish writing, they'd say, Ms.00:03:26.427 --> 00:03:28.347
McNair Lee, we wanna hear what you wrote.00:03:28.982 --> 00:03:39.180
So having eighth graders who helped me accountable to my work, helped me accountable to my studies, outside of folks like Aaron and our cohort and my family and my other friends.00:03:39.538 --> 00:03:43.978
They were the impetus to keep me going and keep me moving through that process.00:03:43.978 --> 00:03:53.347
That was difficult and challenging, but teaching eighth grade, and middle school as a whole really was my sweet spot of teaching.00:03:53.586 --> 00:03:55.146
eighth graders are curious.00:03:55.146 --> 00:04:03.816
They're funny, they're brilliant, and being able to engage with them intellectually sharpened me in ways that I would've never imagined.00:04:04.871 --> 00:04:05.291
Erin Bailey: Thanks.00:04:05.906 --> 00:04:06.056
On.00:04:06.056 --> 00:04:12.716
I think I, I can relate to that so much because fifth and sixth grade for me is a sweet spot.00:04:12.716 --> 00:04:19.046
I started out as a classroom teacher for fifth grade, and then I mostly spent a lot of my career in early childhood.00:04:19.046 --> 00:04:22.856
But when I became a reading specialist, then I had the whole span, right?00:04:23.066 --> 00:04:25.376
pre-K all the way up through eighth grade and.00:04:26.041 --> 00:04:27.511
Fifth and sixth grade.00:04:27.631 --> 00:04:30.961
Reluctant readers are my favorite kind of readers.00:04:30.961 --> 00:04:32.851
Give me, give me a challenge.00:04:32.998 --> 00:04:39.463
give me a student who says they're not interested in reading, and I will turn that around for them.00:04:39.463 --> 00:04:51.671
You know, it, that was what was fun because a lot of times it is about finding the right text for middle school students to engage with and that's, you know, part of what we're gonna talk about, today.00:04:51.671 --> 00:04:52.091
So.00:04:52.323 --> 00:04:59.848
From your experiences, what are the most popular texts that middle schoolers are drawn to, and why do you think they're drawn to those texts?00:05:01.098 --> 00:05:06.400
Dowan: So now, middle schoolers seem to be really drawn to graphic novels, anime and manga texts.00:05:06.400 --> 00:05:09.880
Those are the ones that they're like in my veins.00:05:09.880 --> 00:05:11.470
They want those texts.00:05:11.513 --> 00:05:13.103
research shows that.00:05:13.508 --> 00:05:20.378
One of the reasons why they're drawn to the graphic novel, the anime and the manga, is because of the non-linear storytelling.00:05:20.678 --> 00:05:23.348
It matches the way that they take in information.00:05:23.562 --> 00:05:27.762
middle school aged students are taking in information in various ways.00:05:27.762 --> 00:05:31.542
They take it from their phones, they're texting, they're receiving information.00:05:31.887 --> 00:05:34.792
From, media in all different ways.00:05:34.972 --> 00:05:43.949
So when they read an anime, book, or a manga book or a graphic novel, it mirrors how they're taking in information in their real lives.00:05:44.417 --> 00:05:47.597
also I do think it's a form of escapism in some ways.00:05:47.627 --> 00:05:54.411
they're able to move beyond their current circumstances, current positions, and go to other worlds.00:05:54.411 --> 00:05:58.996
I often cite, Rudin sims, bishops mirrors, windows, and sliding glass doors.00:06:00.016 --> 00:06:05.656
I think especially for manga and anime, that's a sliding glass door experience for students.00:06:05.656 --> 00:06:15.411
It's where they get to experience other worlds, other cultures, other spaces that may not be part of their lived reality, but they get to experience these.00:06:15.741 --> 00:06:23.301
Spaces and become enveloped in them in ways that they may not, if they were just having to rely on their own pictures in their minds to do so.00:06:23.631 --> 00:06:26.691
So I think that's why they're drawn to these texts.00:06:26.991 --> 00:06:34.010
Then you have the students who are drawn to the traditional story, the traditional, Romance, but with a twist.00:06:34.310 --> 00:06:44.245
I'm finding that a lot of middle school age students, like, horror, they like, they like books that have suspense and that keep them on their toes.00:06:44.635 --> 00:06:56.081
Part of it is that I think that the world that they live in is quite frankly, one that is building them up with this kind of resilience and, anticipation of.00:06:56.339 --> 00:06:57.269
The not great.00:06:57.456 --> 00:07:07.716
these are kids who lived through COVID, so you have children who've lived through some circumstances that have not been great, so they can handle Tex in some ways that I.00:07:11.511 --> 00:07:14.091
Scare them a little bit, if I can be quite frank.00:07:14.121 --> 00:07:15.171
They can handle that.00:07:15.171 --> 00:07:17.001
They can handle that level of suspense.00:07:17.344 --> 00:07:22.984
and also I think it is another sliding glass door experience where they can see something else, where they can picture something else.00:07:23.397 --> 00:07:28.562
so I'm always kind of interested when I see kids walking down the hall or whatever near reading, and you're like, what are you reading?00:07:28.887 --> 00:07:32.337
And they're like, yes, this is about this, but it's werewolves and it's this.00:07:32.337 --> 00:07:34.407
And then the main character, you're like, oh.00:07:35.590 --> 00:07:39.040
and it's always really funny and cute and they're so sincere about it.00:07:39.040 --> 00:07:40.030
They're really into it.00:07:40.030 --> 00:07:41.320
They're engaged in the text.00:07:41.590 --> 00:07:45.970
But I do find that the text students are reading seems to be forms of escapism.00:07:46.150 --> 00:07:47.590
They want to be able to get away.00:07:47.770 --> 00:07:53.410
They want to be able to go to another space, another world, another realm, and experience something else.00:07:54.260 --> 00:07:58.220
Erin Bailey: That makes a lot of sense and it mirrors what we've seen at reading is fundamental.00:07:58.320 --> 00:07:58.820
We have middle.00:07:59.175 --> 00:08:04.088
School programs we're in 77, intensive programs in middle schools right now.00:08:04.088 --> 00:08:08.648
And the exactly what you described are the books that we see them drawn to.00:08:08.925 --> 00:08:13.185
one thing that you said that resonated with me was this idea of.00:08:13.443 --> 00:08:15.513
mirrors windows and sliding glass doors.00:08:15.513 --> 00:08:28.023
I think there has been a movement towards more books being mirrors, reflecting students' lived experiences, as well as their identities and affinities, and I think that's wonderful.00:08:28.023 --> 00:08:29.493
We need more books like that.00:08:29.493 --> 00:08:35.013
But text relevance itself doesn't always mean seeing yourself reflected in a book.00:08:35.013 --> 00:08:40.863
And I think a great example of that is how popular Harry Potter became in the us.00:08:41.451 --> 00:08:48.466
I mean, children of all different backgrounds in the US loved Harry Potter, yet not a single one of them.00:08:48.676 --> 00:08:52.266
Were a British schoolboy, with magical powers, you know,00:08:52.266 --> 00:08:53.616
going on these adventures.00:08:54.870 --> 00:08:58.440
Dowan: it wasn't the exteriority that kids were attracted to.00:08:58.616 --> 00:09:00.596
It was the interiority, right?00:09:00.596 --> 00:09:06.356
Like I'm not seeing the relevance or the sameness of their outward experiences.00:09:06.356 --> 00:09:12.566
I'm seeing the sameness in who they are, and I think that's what kids see when they reanimate.00:09:12.596 --> 00:09:16.390
It's not that they are Samurai warriors in Japan or whatever.00:09:16.690 --> 00:09:19.180
They're seeing bravery, they're seeing fear.00:09:19.180 --> 00:09:20.170
They're seeing.00:09:20.384 --> 00:09:24.974
bonds being shared or broken, and that's what they can relate to.00:09:24.974 --> 00:09:32.744
It's not the exteriority of it, it's the inferiority of it that I think matters to kids more now, and I can appreciate that.00:09:33.744 --> 00:09:37.024
Erin Bailey: Absolutely like the characteristics of the character, some of the issue.00:09:37.434 --> 00:09:38.064
That they're going through.00:09:38.064 --> 00:09:43.374
I, the other big requests that we get from our middle schoolers are they want books about friendship, drama.00:09:43.554 --> 00:09:44.604
That makes a lot of sense.00:09:44.604 --> 00:09:50.904
It's something that they're experiencing in middle school and they wanna see how characters experience it and how characters navigate it.00:09:50.904 --> 00:09:56.604
It can give them some ideas of how they might navigate similar conflicts in, in their own lives.00:09:57.279 --> 00:09:57.569
Okay.00:09:58.474 --> 00:09:59.314
Dowan: Absolutely.00:09:59.355 --> 00:10:04.517
and they, you know, and we know that when kids read fiction, it heightens their sensitivity.00:10:04.553 --> 00:10:06.773
it changes their outlook on the world.00:10:06.803 --> 00:10:08.663
It changes the way that they see people.00:10:08.663 --> 00:10:10.883
They see exchanges, they see situations.00:10:11.208 --> 00:10:24.348
So one of the best ways to teach kids, skills, like when we talk about social emotional learning, is exposing them to quality fiction That tells you stories about friendship and relationships and how we deal with coexist with people.00:10:24.348 --> 00:10:24.378
I.00:10:25.848 --> 00:10:30.738
Erin Bailey: And you mentioned something else that I wanted to return to about comics and graphic novels.00:10:30.738 --> 00:10:38.148
I was actually in a webinar recently attending a webinar recently, and someone put in the chat that graphic novels.00:10:38.763 --> 00:10:50.403
We're not real reading, and I certainly have a stance on this, but I'd love to hear you share about why this might be a misconception and what are some of the advantages of reading graphic novels.00:10:51.563 --> 00:10:56.735
Dowan: So, I've heard this since I started teaching and I started teaching 20,00:10:59.115 --> 00:11:05.040
gosh, 24 years ago I started teaching and graphic novels were just becoming a thing.00:11:06.220 --> 00:11:07.240
Way back then.00:11:07.660 --> 00:11:10.020
And, I heard so many, but they can't read that.00:11:10.020 --> 00:11:10.980
They can't read that.00:11:10.980 --> 00:11:11.190
No.00:11:11.190 --> 00:11:13.200
You got, they have to read real books.00:11:13.374 --> 00:11:18.144
part of it is just people's allegiance to what's already been done.00:11:18.204 --> 00:11:18.414
It.00:11:18.414 --> 00:11:19.764
There's no rhyme or reason.00:11:19.764 --> 00:11:21.924
It's just allegiance to what's already been done.00:11:22.404 --> 00:11:26.124
Also, some people have an affinity for a paragraph.00:11:26.364 --> 00:11:31.884
They want to see blocks of text without pictures and pictures For some people.00:11:32.464 --> 00:11:48.262
the fact that a text would have pictures for some denotes that it is not, that the pictures are cheating, that a picture in a text is cheating kids out of a comprehension experience.00:11:48.352 --> 00:11:48.442
And00:11:50.737 --> 00:11:53.242
I actually take serious issue with that.00:11:53.242 --> 00:11:58.582
As someone who admires and loves art, we go to museums to look at pictures.00:11:59.452 --> 00:12:00.382
All the time.00:12:01.042 --> 00:12:08.752
And we ask the picture theoretically to tell us what the, what its story is.00:12:08.812 --> 00:12:13.372
So we stand in front of this picture and we ask this picture, what is your story?00:12:14.182 --> 00:12:17.992
So if a picture then is in a book.00:12:18.907 --> 00:12:21.067
It is accompanied by words.00:12:21.277 --> 00:12:28.237
Why can't we then teach kids to ask the picture what its story is the same way we do when we go to a museum.00:12:28.537 --> 00:12:34.027
Secondly, I think because in graphic novels we have texts and pictures.00:12:34.267 --> 00:12:37.447
The texts are not the dominant feature.00:12:37.567 --> 00:12:40.207
It's like code stars, right?00:12:41.167 --> 00:12:46.927
But then that means that the text has to be rich and it has to do its job efficiently.00:12:47.467 --> 00:13:02.167
So you have figurative language, you have phrases that students have to decipher and know because there's not gonna be a whole lot of description given because the description is gonna be in the picture, but the text is going to be tight and rich.00:13:02.617 --> 00:13:06.397
And I think when we say that graphic novels aren't.00:13:06.832 --> 00:13:16.552
Books or they aren't relevant, we're cheating students out of the opportunity to really engage with this kind of tight and rich text that is figurative language heavy.00:13:16.792 --> 00:13:21.802
That is definitely kind of giving you what it wants to give you in ways that.00:13:22.352 --> 00:13:24.842
You're not going to get in a traditional text.00:13:24.932 --> 00:13:38.882
and I think that like, as I was thinking about our conversation yesterday and how I might approach this, how dare I go up to someone like Jerry Craft and tell him that a book like New Kid Isn't Relevant isn't a great text?00:13:38.882 --> 00:13:45.752
Like that's so presumptuous and quite frankly is disrespectful that we would approach.00:13:45.959 --> 00:13:49.885
Text that does it differently as not being valid.00:13:50.094 --> 00:13:57.384
I also think that we privilege difficult, we privilege difficult in ways that are unnecessary.00:13:57.984 --> 00:14:07.914
Is it necessary for us to read, um, 50 pages of dense texts when this story can be told in 10 in a different way by marrying text and pictures?00:14:08.291 --> 00:14:14.531
And because I've gone through certain processes in my life where you have to go through a process to get something.00:14:14.819 --> 00:14:23.953
I also think that some teachers and, and educators, I'll say it like that, believe that if this is the way that I learned, then this is the way my students must learn.00:14:24.403 --> 00:14:26.053
And I don't think that's valid.00:14:26.053 --> 00:14:31.483
I think that we have to look at the students we have in our rooms and we have to look to see what the kids want and what they're drawn to.00:14:31.573 --> 00:14:35.503
And if it's a graphic novel to let 'em read, let them read.00:14:35.923 --> 00:14:44.443
Erin Bailey: How about, so I'll give a specific example, about letting students choose the mode that they can access the text.00:14:44.443 --> 00:14:50.035
So, for example, I, this happened recently, I ordered some books for a school, one crazy summer.00:14:50.035 --> 00:14:53.545
it's a very popular text used in a lot of schools.00:14:53.545 --> 00:14:55.405
They now have a Spanish version of it.00:14:55.405 --> 00:14:59.545
They also have a graphic novel version of it, and of course you can get the audio book.00:14:59.545 --> 00:14:59.935
So.00:15:00.550 --> 00:15:06.485
Are there benefits to having a, the same story in multiple formats?00:15:08.170 --> 00:15:09.160
Dowan: Absolutely.00:15:09.250 --> 00:15:09.910
Absolutely.00:15:10.030 --> 00:15:14.890
Because I think that you get different experiences from each format.00:15:14.941 --> 00:15:22.201
I mean, obviously Spanish, there's students who they just can simply access the text because if it wasn't in Spanish, they wouldn't be able to access it.00:15:22.621 --> 00:15:25.381
I think the graphic novel provides just a different experience.00:15:25.441 --> 00:15:33.019
You can't actually see, if I'm comparing The standard book or the original text to the graphic novel.00:15:34.354 --> 00:15:39.004
I think it is, it's a good choice that students can see.00:15:39.364 --> 00:15:48.844
How do they take this paragraph and then reflect this in arts and words, or going the opposite way.00:15:49.154 --> 00:15:54.374
How do they take this art and words and reflect it in a paragraph?00:15:54.614 --> 00:15:57.014
So I think that there's value in doing both.00:15:57.284 --> 00:16:01.184
I also think it's value in what is it that you're actually teaching.00:16:01.477 --> 00:16:04.927
and this is where I get into it with people about audio books all the time.00:16:04.957 --> 00:16:06.577
Audio books aren't reading.00:16:06.637 --> 00:16:08.502
Oh my God, audio books aren't reading.00:16:08.677 --> 00:16:09.577
And I'm like, whatever.00:16:09.959 --> 00:16:11.849
Audio books are a form of reading.00:16:11.849 --> 00:16:14.069
It just depends on what it is you're trying to teach.00:16:14.429 --> 00:16:27.539
If you're trying to teach letter recognition, word recognition, all that, then the audio book obviously is not teaching that the audio book is doing that work for you in that capacity, but you're still having to comprehend.00:16:27.844 --> 00:16:32.434
You're still having to listen and comprehend, so you're getting that part.00:16:32.434 --> 00:16:41.854
But if you're trying to get kids to be able to do the word work, then yes, you're gonna lead them to the written text for the word level work.00:16:42.178 --> 00:16:48.778
so I think it's incumbent upon the education professionals in the space to determine what is it that I'm trying to teach.00:16:49.738 --> 00:17:04.528
And then based on what it is I'm trying to teach, these are the options that I will make available for my students and given professionals who know their students and who have the skill to teach the options to do so, I think is the best way to go with that.00:17:05.368 --> 00:17:08.488
So think having all of that is wonderful in the classroom space.00:17:09.478 --> 00:17:12.118
Erin Bailey: There's also kind of, you've, you've touched on this a little bit.00:17:12.118 --> 00:17:14.405
There's somewhat of a, a debate.00:17:14.405 --> 00:17:22.865
is probably too strong of a word about novels versus excerpts, and there's actually an EdWeek article I can link for everyone in the show notes.00:17:22.925 --> 00:17:27.365
novels versus excerpts, what, you know, what kind of debates are going on right now.00:17:27.815 --> 00:17:30.065
And I was wondering if you have.00:17:30.540 --> 00:17:32.160
An opinion on this.00:17:32.160 --> 00:17:42.570
I think the movement has kind of been towards shorter excerpts and anthologies, particularly because in the testing environment, that's what students experience, right?00:17:42.570 --> 00:17:46.950
You're never in a testing environment and asked to read a whole novel.00:17:46.950 --> 00:17:49.380
So how can teachers find balance there?00:17:50.920 --> 00:17:56.080
Dowan: So back to the story about me moving from elementary to middle school.00:17:56.080 --> 00:18:01.578
That first year I taught sixth grade, was a transition year in our testing schedule.00:18:01.908 --> 00:18:08.688
It was like in the middle of us transitioning to, I forget 'cause I've taught in like four different testing environments.00:18:09.453 --> 00:18:13.563
but we were transitioning from one test to another and sixth grade was not a.00:18:13.938 --> 00:18:17.058
Tested grade or was not a pilot grade.00:18:17.358 --> 00:18:23.148
So this was the only year in my teaching career that I was not responsible for any kind of standardized test.00:18:23.478 --> 00:18:27.978
None, absolutely none, no benchmarks, no year end, no nothing.00:18:28.728 --> 00:18:33.168
And I took that as the opportunity to teach all novels.00:18:34.158 --> 00:18:44.418
I taught four novels that year and we actually partnered with another school that has sixth grade and we will walk over, back and forth to the schools and have book talks or whatever with each other.00:18:44.958 --> 00:18:49.518
And I'm still in touch with a lot of those students to this day, and they still tell me.00:18:49.848 --> 00:18:53.649
I remember that you let us read all of, Maya and Angela.00:18:53.649 --> 00:18:55.359
I know why the Caged Bird sings.00:18:56.364 --> 00:18:59.844
I, I'm glad that you let us read To Kill a Mockingbird.00:18:59.844 --> 00:19:02.094
Like these were the texts that sixth graders.00:19:02.154 --> 00:19:04.674
I was crazy letting them read these books.00:19:04.674 --> 00:19:05.064
By the way.00:19:05.350 --> 00:19:06.040
I was young.00:19:06.100 --> 00:19:06.760
I didn't know.00:19:06.804 --> 00:19:11.544
but sixth graders were able to read these whole novels.00:19:12.594 --> 00:19:33.984
And not just to read them to know how to make an inference or how to understand figurative language, but to really understand the development of a story,
to really understand why an author not just situated in the classroom standards, but while author historically would write this book, why an author?00:19:34.483 --> 00:19:37.243
in this time period, why does this matter now?00:19:37.273 --> 00:19:39.343
Why does this matter then, et cetera.00:19:39.823 --> 00:19:50.533
So I think that the push away from novels into the excerpt robs kids of the opportunity to experience books in their fullest expression.00:19:50.820 --> 00:19:55.705
you're not really understanding the entire story, and when I say story, I'm not just.00:19:55.890 --> 00:20:03.240
Talking about the printed text, but the entire story of the text, like, where does this fit in, in the larger cultural milieu?00:20:03.650 --> 00:20:10.647
for example, right now my ninth grader is reading the Joy Luck Club, and she and her best friend are going back and forth like, yes.00:20:10.647 --> 00:20:15.147
At the end of chapter five, her response was T like, oh my God, like.00:20:15.952 --> 00:20:28.732
They're having these conversations, and I just don't know if in an excerpt you're getting those kind of authentic conversations about sex that come up naturally as people read a book together.00:20:29.036 --> 00:20:32.966
because a excerpt doesn't lend itself to that, you're, you're not getting that.00:20:33.296 --> 00:20:35.186
I understand why.00:20:35.696 --> 00:20:36.626
I understand why.00:20:36.686 --> 00:20:40.881
Again, my last year in the classroom was 2022.00:20:42.401 --> 00:20:47.501
So, yes, I've been, I, I know and I understand the challenges.00:20:47.552 --> 00:20:56.756
our school had time for us to read novels where we could do novel study or whatever outside of, just test prep.00:20:56.854 --> 00:20:59.134
But I understand the challenges.00:20:59.164 --> 00:21:06.034
I understand that it is a balancing act, especially when teachers are being pushed to raise scores.00:21:06.604 --> 00:21:10.024
Right, and the, the easiest way to do that is skill-based.00:21:10.414 --> 00:21:11.584
Focusing on skills.00:21:11.584 --> 00:21:14.944
Focusing on skills, not necessarily the story itself.00:21:15.334 --> 00:21:17.404
So finding those times.00:21:17.404 --> 00:21:24.360
and that's where I think when I talked about it The webinar a few weeks ago when I talked about the contest and all of that.00:21:24.360 --> 00:21:34.710
That's where I think you get other people outside of the English teacher involved because it can't just be on the ELA teacher in the building to do this work.00:21:34.740 --> 00:21:35.400
It can't.00:21:35.430 --> 00:21:35.910
It can't.00:21:35.910 --> 00:21:43.680
it's too large of a responsibility and I think this is when all of the grownups in the building need to ship in and make sure the kids are reading.00:21:44.650 --> 00:21:47.170
And there has to be building wide efforts around that.00:21:47.170 --> 00:21:52.180
And that just can't be the sole purpose of the sixth, seventh, and eighth grade ELA teachers.00:21:52.210 --> 00:21:53.050
It just can't be.00:21:53.802 --> 00:22:02.777
Erin Bailey: You reminded me, when I was the reading specialist, I. Saw that the sixth grade science teacher used to read aloud to her students every day.00:22:02.889 --> 00:22:19.179
it was an after lunch recess, kind of, you know, we're coming back to the classroom and I'm gonna read you a chapter from this book, but I went, A lot of
science teachers, I don't wanna generalize, but as you're saying, a lot of middle school teachers think that it's the ELA teacher's responsibility, right?00:22:19.179 --> 00:22:25.599
So I went up to this teacher to give her a compliment and say, that's such a great practice that you're reading aloud to your students.00:22:25.599 --> 00:22:26.019
She said.00:22:26.404 --> 00:22:29.464
Yeah, of course I would read aloud to my students.00:22:29.464 --> 00:22:30.124
why wouldn't I?00:22:30.124 --> 00:22:39.964
But I think she didn't realize how rare it is for a content area teacher, science, social studies, other kind of teacher to be reading a aloud.00:22:39.964 --> 00:22:43.834
And many people do feel it's because they don't have, time in the school day.00:22:43.834 --> 00:22:49.324
And something else you said about being able to access whole novels, whole texts.00:22:49.324 --> 00:22:52.774
I, when I mentioned earlier, I started teaching fifth grade.00:22:53.089 --> 00:22:57.079
And we had an anthology, which was e excerpts and picture books.00:22:57.079 --> 00:23:03.979
And I remember when I started, I asked the seventh grade teacher, do you read novels here?00:23:03.979 --> 00:23:06.979
Or do you just stick to the curriculum in the anthology?00:23:06.979 --> 00:23:10.849
And he said, oh yeah, you gotta mix a novel in, because for some students.00:23:11.119 --> 00:23:26.329
That's the only whole novel they will read the entire year, and I think that's important to remember too, is that not every child reads at home and so you reading a novel to them with them, that might be the only novel that they read the entire year.00:23:27.284 --> 00:23:31.564
Dowan: That's their only exposure to that kind of rich engagement with text.00:23:31.654 --> 00:23:37.989
And if you don't provide that in some way, if the school doesn't provide it, then they're not gonna get it.00:23:38.679 --> 00:23:52.389
And like I said, I think that when students come back to me and say, you had had us read, I remember I had an eighth grade class that read The Giver and it was so many arguments and oh my God, they argue and fought for a month.00:23:53.529 --> 00:24:01.659
Like I, every day I knew we were gonna argue and fight because the book just brought up so many themes and.00:24:02.739 --> 00:24:07.539
You have to give kids the opportunity to engage in the way that we read books.00:24:07.539 --> 00:24:10.299
When we read books, we talk about them.00:24:10.749 --> 00:24:13.689
We are mad about them, we're excited about them.00:24:13.689 --> 00:24:15.519
We are like, Ooh, did you read this part?00:24:15.999 --> 00:24:19.809
And do you get that out of a curated excerpt?00:24:19.839 --> 00:24:28.149
That's just meant to show, you know, how the theme is developed through a character specific action.00:24:28.479 --> 00:24:28.809
No.00:24:29.259 --> 00:24:35.454
No, you have to be able to see all of the moves of the text in order to have those rich conversations.00:24:36.784 --> 00:24:37.624
Erin Bailey: Yeah, absolutely.00:24:37.684 --> 00:24:39.119
And you've mentioned some.00:24:39.449 --> 00:24:40.319
Older text.00:24:40.319 --> 00:24:44.939
So this might be a controversial question, but I'll, you brought it up.00:24:44.939 --> 00:24:59.639
You've mentioned the giver, and to kill a mocking word, what I guess advice would you have for teachers who might be grappling with, do I teach the quote unquote classics, or do I try to incorporate newer novels?00:24:59.644 --> 00:25:02.099
Like what has been your experience with this?00:25:02.689 --> 00:25:08.629
Dowan: So my, my feelings about To Kill a Mockingbird have changed significantly since I started teaching.00:25:08.659 --> 00:25:10.039
That was 20 years ago.00:25:10.309 --> 00:25:17.539
So the way that I feel about that book now is very different than I felt about event, and I think this is how I will answer this question.00:25:17.809 --> 00:25:28.401
So, my daughter Read To Kill a Mockingbird last year, and, without my prompting at all, shared some very strong feelings about the text, with me, with her teacher, and I was like.00:25:28.871 --> 00:25:29.561
Okay.00:25:29.785 --> 00:25:30.955
and read the entire book.00:25:31.045 --> 00:25:48.555
What I explained to her was that because To Kill a Mockingbird is, canonical in the sense that there's so many allusions to that text and other texts and other real world environments, right?00:25:48.885 --> 00:25:52.635
So in order to understand other things.00:25:53.505 --> 00:26:00.585
It's, and to be a literate member of society, this society that we live in, that is what it is.00:26:01.575 --> 00:26:06.945
It's fairly important that, you know, that text if you want to access other texts.00:26:07.380 --> 00:26:17.280
so I think that there has to be exposure to the cannon in order for students to be able to access other texts that reference the cannon, right?00:26:17.489 --> 00:26:17.999
but.00:26:18.048 --> 00:26:24.048
My push is that we expand what the cannon is because as much as To Kill a Mockingbird is canonical.00:26:24.048 --> 00:26:25.908
I believe that Beloved is canonical.00:26:26.058 --> 00:26:27.738
Now, am I gonna see Beloved to sixth graders?00:26:28.068 --> 00:26:28.848
Absolutely not.00:26:28.848 --> 00:26:30.228
Probably shouldn't have taught it to sixth.00:26:30.228 --> 00:26:33.588
Probably shouldn't have taught to kill a Mockingbird to sixth graders, but that was then.00:26:33.779 --> 00:26:37.559
but we have to expand what we believe is canonical.00:26:37.559 --> 00:26:39.779
So Tony Morrison is canonical.00:26:39.779 --> 00:26:45.959
Walter Sadine Myers to me is canonical in the world of young adult literature, right?00:26:45.959 --> 00:26:52.259
Like if kids have not read Monster, I'm like, why haven't you like, there has to be an exposure to that.00:26:52.469 --> 00:26:58.144
So I think expanding our idea of what the canon is and then being honest about why we're teaching.00:26:58.889 --> 00:27:09.419
Not because it's so important, not because it is the best, not because it is this, but because so much of what we will learn is based in these things.00:27:09.419 --> 00:27:10.679
That's why I taught Shakespeare.00:27:11.039 --> 00:27:21.389
It wasn't because, oh my God, Shakespeare is this and it's the, it's because so much of what you will read and understand later is based in what you know from this.00:27:22.034 --> 00:27:26.594
And not understanding this will kind of leave you lost and other stuff later.00:27:27.164 --> 00:27:27.614
So00:27:27.679 --> 00:27:28.489
Erin Bailey: a great point.00:27:28.514 --> 00:27:31.904
Dowan: is the, yeah, it's like that's the balancing act for me.00:27:32.144 --> 00:27:36.074
It's always like, this is the reference material.00:27:36.284 --> 00:27:38.384
I just want you to know the reference material.00:27:38.474 --> 00:27:41.204
Am I rising it above anything else know?00:27:41.414 --> 00:27:47.954
But because this is the society that we live in that chooses to use these text reference, this is the reference material.00:27:48.674 --> 00:27:51.524
I want you to know this so you can access all this other stuff.00:27:52.679 --> 00:27:59.143
Erin Bailey: So it's a both, it's a both and it's finding the balance and recognizing that time isn't always on our side.00:27:59.143 --> 00:27:59.803
You, you know,00:27:59.803 --> 00:28:05.988
this leads to teachers making difficult choices sometimes and, and, you know, maybe you mix it up.00:28:06.373 --> 00:28:10.843
Every school year, you don't, there's no rule that says you have to teach the same texts every school.00:28:10.843 --> 00:28:13.693
I mean, well, I shouldn't say there is no rule.00:28:13.693 --> 00:28:15.193
In some places there are rules.00:28:15.386 --> 00:28:24.498
but if you do, if you are a teacher who has autonomy over your curriculum, then you should feel empowered to, mix it up and, and use it both and approach.00:28:25.998 --> 00:28:37.368
Dowan: Spot things in and out, and again, utilize the resources that it's not just you, but rally the rally, the resources in your school community outside to help students be exposed to other texts as well.00:28:38.238 --> 00:28:51.858
Erin Bailey: And I think the other thing that you mentioned, particularly because we're talking about adolescent readers here, is that adolescents, middle schoolers love a good challenge and they love to critique things.00:28:52.038 --> 00:28:54.013
So just like you were describing of your daughter.00:28:55.713 --> 00:28:59.463
Reading a text that they disagree with sometimes is even better.00:28:59.493 --> 00:29:01.023
It will get them talking more.00:29:01.023 --> 00:29:02.613
It will get them thinking deeper.00:29:02.613 --> 00:29:04.203
It will get them excited.00:29:05.313 --> 00:29:06.153
Dowan: Absolutely.00:29:06.285 --> 00:29:15.409
If you had read her angry essays, I mean, just getting as outta spite, like, I hate this book, and these are reasons why, right?00:29:15.455 --> 00:29:18.305
this book is blank, blank, blank, blank, blank.00:29:18.335 --> 00:29:20.075
And this is why I believe that.00:29:20.525 --> 00:29:23.885
And just the passion to be able to make that point.00:29:24.117 --> 00:29:27.057
and I was like, I don't care that you don't like it.00:29:27.207 --> 00:29:30.777
I, I want you to read things that you don't love.00:29:31.617 --> 00:29:38.727
Not because you can't read it, but because you have an issue with it theoretically or whatever.00:29:38.727 --> 00:29:44.752
And I want you to be able to expand onto why, why you don't, and that I think is important for young people like.00:29:46.287 --> 00:29:51.387
And it helps frame their way of being engaged with the world, right?00:29:51.387 --> 00:29:57.129
Because every idea that they hear, they're not going to, agree with, that's not gonna be part of their personal stance.00:29:57.339 --> 00:29:59.649
So they have to be able to explain why, why?00:29:59.649 --> 00:30:01.479
I don't agree with this idea, why.00:30:01.749 --> 00:30:06.044
So this prepares them for those, interactions later or currently.00:30:06.874 --> 00:30:07.174
Erin Bailey: Yeah.00:30:07.438 --> 00:30:10.678
you mentioned 2022 earlier, so I wanna take us back.00:30:10.678 --> 00:30:16.108
We're gonna time travel for a minute here, and for our listeners, Dewan and I were invited.00:30:16.108 --> 00:30:23.270
To the National Assessment of Education Progress or the reading report card, release, back in 2022.00:30:23.270 --> 00:30:34.473
So we were sitting in the room with their panel of experts, when they did their, press release and released the scores and walked us all through the scores and when they brought up the literacy scores.00:30:35.258 --> 00:30:38.228
I mean, it was dead silent in the room.00:30:38.558 --> 00:30:42.308
It was chilling to say the least, and di and disheartening.00:30:42.368 --> 00:30:48.698
And the headline here is that in 2022, the NA scores had reached the lowest.00:30:49.073 --> 00:30:50.273
In 30 years.00:30:50.661 --> 00:30:56.391
and there's been a another round in APE since then, but it hasn't shown that much improvement.00:30:56.391 --> 00:31:05.571
So I wanted to ask you, Dewan, what is most concerning for you about this decline in APE scores for eighth graders?00:31:06.731 --> 00:31:08.561
Dowan: So particularly with eighth graders.00:31:08.651 --> 00:31:12.821
So with the 2022 scores, and now that I think about it, my last year in the classroom was 2021.00:31:13.030 --> 00:31:13.250
so.00:31:13.775 --> 00:31:15.335
couple things concern me.00:31:15.395 --> 00:31:22.931
So when we think about eighth graders, with the 2022 scores, that was kind of immediately post pandemic.00:31:23.531 --> 00:31:32.951
And for us in the room, I think it was just a stark, not even wanna say reminder, but stark example of.00:31:34.226 --> 00:31:43.406
The sheer trauma, educational trauma of the pandemic, and many states had different ways of addressing pandemic learning.00:31:43.796 --> 00:31:48.146
I am in a state or city where students were home for a year and a half.00:31:48.298 --> 00:31:51.448
other places were out for a couple months and they went back to school.00:31:51.688 --> 00:32:01.108
And quite honestly, there was not a lot of variance between kids who had been home for a year and a half versus kids who were home from March to.00:32:01.734 --> 00:32:04.644
June and went back to school in person in August.00:32:04.644 --> 00:32:21.128
There wasn't a lot of variance in those scores and I think what we saw is that the psychic, impact of the pandemic, affected children in ways that we probably are still working through and don't even know probably until those folks are adults.00:32:21.320 --> 00:32:24.363
And as I said, when, my principal.00:32:24.691 --> 00:32:39.839
When I was still in the classroom during the pandemic, we had some business folks visit our building and my principal asked me to be a part
of their conver that conversation, and she was like, one of the questions they asked was, what is something we're doing wrong right now?00:32:39.839 --> 00:32:41.279
I said, this rush back to normal.00:32:42.259 --> 00:32:46.519
The rush back to normal, doing things normal, let's get back to normal.00:32:46.519 --> 00:32:50.059
I think it devastated children because nothing was normal.00:32:50.179 --> 00:32:54.109
And then we rushed back to the sense of normalcy.00:32:54.614 --> 00:32:56.264
That really wasn't normal.00:32:56.504 --> 00:33:07.274
Instead of taking a beat and saying, what do kids need and how can we reconfigure what we're doing to really meet the needs of children that wasn't done.00:33:07.704 --> 00:33:11.514
and I think the 22 scores reflected that in ways that.00:33:12.024 --> 00:33:15.114
We're still seeing reverberate even as those students.00:33:15.114 --> 00:33:20.214
Now, if that's 22, those students will be college freshmen next year.00:33:20.401 --> 00:33:22.831
and they'll be on my doorstep soon.00:33:23.055 --> 00:33:30.038
and we are seeing some of these things in our college classrooms now, with the scores a couple years later, and there was no change.00:33:30.068 --> 00:33:36.368
I think for me, the conversation that has to happen is there were a lot of funding that was dropped on schools and school districts.00:33:36.648 --> 00:33:44.308
To catch kids up, like millions and millions and millions of dollars were given to schools and school districts to, you know.00:33:45.033 --> 00:33:48.123
Reverse pandemic loss and catch kids up.00:33:48.273 --> 00:33:53.433
And we saw that the scores did not really budge in those subsequent years.00:33:53.823 --> 00:33:58.773
So my question is that are we really understanding what it means to catch kids up?00:33:59.283 --> 00:34:06.183
Are we really doing evidence-based practices when we talk about moving kids to where they need to be in literacy?00:34:06.273 --> 00:34:12.933
And is the measuring stick that we're using even still applicable right now?00:34:12.988 --> 00:34:13.278
Like.00:34:13.487 --> 00:34:20.177
Is it fair to even still measure kids based on pre pandemic standards anymore?00:34:20.267 --> 00:34:22.607
Or should we really be rethinking this thing?00:34:22.940 --> 00:34:29.859
and quite honestly, one of the things that bothers me still is the lack of imagination.00:34:30.312 --> 00:34:38.445
And daring that I think children needed and still need in order to reach their full potential.00:34:39.075 --> 00:34:54.408
And my fear is that this continued lack of imagination, this continued lack of daring, and reliance on AI and things like that are going to cause we're not gonna see anything get better00:34:55.838 --> 00:34:57.218
Erin Bailey: And I think your point too.00:34:57.513 --> 00:34:59.373
About going back to normal.00:34:59.763 --> 00:35:03.423
The reading scores were not great before the pandemic, to be clear.00:35:03.423 --> 00:35:04.293
So the idea00:35:04.363 --> 00:35:09.228
Dowan: It wasn't like we were beaten down anything before, so it's like why even make that our goal?00:35:10.068 --> 00:35:12.798
Why can't we imagine something different and better?00:35:12.798 --> 00:35:20.508
Like, you know, the work that I do, my work is all about dreaming and thinking about a better world, a better future, a better idea.00:35:20.928 --> 00:35:28.008
So this idea of like going backwards, going backwards for something that wasn't even great to begin with is kind of silly.00:35:28.903 --> 00:35:29.738
Erin Bailey: Yeah, definitely.00:35:30.016 --> 00:35:33.001
Um, so we'll end on a positive here.00:35:33.001 --> 00:35:37.351
As you know, the podcast is called Reading Inspires, and you just mentioned dreaming.00:35:37.351 --> 00:35:39.631
So what does reading inspire for you?00:35:40.636 --> 00:35:41.476
Dowan: Oh gosh.00:35:42.136 --> 00:35:43.516
You know, I thought about this one.00:35:43.673 --> 00:35:56.946
I tell my reading story to my students all the I'm a little girl from northeast dc You know, I grew up in an apartment on Fort Soton Drive, in northeast DC My parents were working class, and I didn't see a whole lot of the world.00:35:57.006 --> 00:35:59.736
I mean, I lived in DC so I went to museums.00:35:59.736 --> 00:36:03.036
I had experiences, but I didn't see a lot of the world as a child.00:36:03.036 --> 00:36:04.626
We didn't travel extensively.00:36:04.626 --> 00:36:05.526
We can do this.00:36:06.276 --> 00:36:09.666
But books took me everywhere I wanted to go.00:36:10.016 --> 00:36:16.886
books showed me that there was a world outside of the apartment that I lived in, outside of my grandma's house, outside of my church.00:36:16.949 --> 00:36:23.699
books showed me that there were people who didn't look like me, but who had, there were girls who were having similar experiences to me.00:36:23.991 --> 00:36:26.751
one of my favorite books as a little girl was Little Women.00:36:26.811 --> 00:36:32.001
Those girls couldn't have been more different from me in circumstances than anybody in the world.00:36:32.481 --> 00:36:34.581
But knowing that there were four little girls.00:36:34.956 --> 00:36:36.366
Somewhere in time.00:36:37.356 --> 00:36:47.706
That were sharing some of the same fears, anxieties, loves that I had made me feel like I was connected in a world that sometimes I felt disconnected from.00:36:47.828 --> 00:36:51.655
so reading inspires for me, it inspires this idea that, um.00:36:51.655 --> 00:36:54.325
You know, to be kind of corny, but take a look.00:36:54.325 --> 00:36:55.885
It's in a book like it.00:36:56.365 --> 00:36:58.015
I can go anywhere.00:36:58.045 --> 00:37:01.825
I can do anything, I can be anything.00:37:02.365 --> 00:37:07.352
And the idea that I would be anything, was inspired by books.00:37:07.412 --> 00:37:08.912
It was inspired by that.00:37:09.632 --> 00:37:15.846
And a little black girl from northeast DC became a doctor because of books.00:37:16.629 --> 00:37:27.666
And because my mother was kind enough and thoughtful enough and brilliant enough to go to the library when I was in middle school and say, my daughter likes to read, I want black books.00:37:28.206 --> 00:37:35.226
And she brought home, um, Maya Angelou's, autobiography, and Jay, California Cooper and James Baldwin, all of these books.00:37:35.585 --> 00:37:47.405
, I got to see black brilliance and I got to see that people like me could then be brilliant and smart and do, and be, and travel and write and do all of these incredible things.00:37:47.405 --> 00:37:48.755
So reading inspires me.00:37:48.755 --> 00:37:51.335
It inspires future and inspires possibility.00:37:51.665 --> 00:37:56.555
It inspires hope, it inspires that I can inspire somebody else.00:37:56.615 --> 00:37:59.105
, It's my lifeline, it's my joy.00:37:59.105 --> 00:38:00.065
It's what makes me smile.00:38:00.065 --> 00:38:01.205
It's what makes me happy.00:38:01.255 --> 00:38:02.305
Books are my friends,00:38:02.630 --> 00:38:03.770
Erin Bailey: Oh, thank you.00:38:04.700 --> 00:38:11.450
Oh, Dr. McNally, and you're here to inspire other generations to be readers, and we appreciate you so much.00:38:11.450 --> 00:38:12.110
Thank you.00:38:12.587 --> 00:38:13.247
Dowan: Thank you.00:38:13.247 --> 00:38:14.297
This was wonderful.
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